#parts #hi-end #audiophile Visit us: www.gr-researc... In todays video, we answer the question: Do Audiophile Parts Matter? Dont forget to like and subscribe!
If someone says parts don't matter, they haven't built a guitar amp or crossover or anything. Some things don't sound as drastic but everything has its own personality going on pretty much to different degrees
I am 71 yrs old and wish I was young again, with good hearing and time to tinker with my 7 year old Diamond 10.4, Cayin EL-34 tube amp and Marantz cd-6004 which are in my spacious bedroom. I have mild hearing loss in both ears, lower midrange in the left and higher midrange on the right. Yet, I am happy with the smooth, seemingly clear sounds as I think my brain helps to balance what I'm hearing. I enjoy your program and appreciate all you do. My speakers can go down to 38hz and can feel them specially in Saint Saens Organ concerto.
1:18 Without waching the whole video i can absolute agree with this statement. There is a big difference between cheap and 'good' parts. But there's also a border when 'high-end' parts become expensive without hearable results. Speaker cables are such a money pit.
While I absolutely respect speaker builders and the incredible efforts from the audiophile community to achieve better quality, I do feel there is a huge market in “audio grade” components, cables etc and a lot of incentive to sell to the community. So while it’s interesting to hear opinions from experts, I am yet to be convinced that components that measure the same would have any difference to our ears.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'll take you up on that. Will you perform a blind test on camera here to show your ability to discern difference in crossover capacitors? It will be a simple test, you only need to listen and write down your answers, I'll do the rest. The results will be shown in the same video. I think it would be prudent to do an analysis of networks with measurements first to show any electrical differences, then the blind test to see if there is a difference in signal then how audible is it. What say you? Would you do this test on camera?
@@glengatt3941 I wish it were true that none of this made any difference. It would make my job infinitely easier, and far more predictable. Unfortunately for pretenders to the throne, EVERYTHING done in an audio component makes a difference to varying degrees. The difference between a true master of the art, and the hobbyist is the true understanding and experience that comes from spending DECADES of your life perfecting the craft of creating the fine instruments we refer to broadly as “ High End” audio.
Very good material. This is all true and I often tell our company's clients. Crossover parts have a great influence on the sound of a stereo system . Best Regards Wilk-Audio-Projekt
To receive decades of information from some one free of cost is amazing.Being in electronics for ever I can remember when there was no were to find answers was trail and error this is priceless.Can you do video on 12 volt system like JL to speakers subs and there amps.
Great content, Danny! I’m the guy JEFF that bought the NX Extreme kit from you about three years ago. Still haven’t installed the drivers or painted the loudspeakers I did buy all the parts from you with the exception of the New Rez that I’ll have to buy from you probably towards the end of the year of 2025, will be applying the epoxy primer and urethane paint in the next 3 to 6 months because the weather here where I live is really cold. 🥶
Danny, love your videos. I bought my first stereo in 1970 when I was in the USAF. Everyone in the barracks was buying stereos despite the fact that we were only getting paid about $200 per month. Some of the guys who had been stationed in Vietnam came back with very high end stereos, cameras and other equipment. It was kind of crazy but that's what bored 19-22 year old single guys spent their money on. My first speakers were AR-5s which cost $175 each. My first receiver was the Heathkit AR-15 which I think cost about $300. I used them until 1995 when the woofer cone cracked. Since then I have purchased many other speakers without really understanding the specifications. In the last few weeks I have learned more from your you-tube videos than l learned during all those years. If I could make a suggestion; it would help me follow the discussion if you could use an electronic pointer when discussing the performance graphs. I would also help if you define what the axes represent on each of graphs. Thanks, keep up the great work.
I'm going up to that next level right now. Migraine just kicked in, and thus I now have partial loss of vision. It started just after the beginning of watching this video. Fortunately that is as far as it goes these days at 66 years old. Back when it first hit me long long ago, it caused a nasty headache, paralysis of my right arm, loss of speech, and numbness on the right side of my upper lip. Scared the heck out of me. Anyhow, after fixing all the 22 Faders in my 45 year old Soundcraftsmen PE2217 Preamp - Equalizer, I am trying to find out how I can use equipment to set things as best as possible while using my home made 1978 huge speakers. Well, that is as far as I can get, I can just barely read my text at this moment. Thank goodness for auto spell check.
Sure but this is just a guy saying some stuff is better than other stuff without any actual evidence. This video would have been so much better if he'd just measure the same crossover output with a cheap / small coild and again with an expensive coil. Right now it's just "You know, some stuff is better then others, better buy THIS stuff because, well, I say so".
@@IUsedToBeAPygmy I ordered from GR and have it in my mid-fi gear and it sounds great. Don’t knock it ‘till you try it. And maybe you will see what he talking about 🙂
@@IUsedToBeAPygmy He already did that in another video. They measure the same but sound different. Which means the type of measurement that's usually done doesn't measure the type of difference that is heard. Two cars with 300bhp might not do a 1/4 mile in the same amount of time. Are you going to say that because they "measure" the same, they are going to perform the same?
Air wound inductors. If you want layman's terms , it's just thick copper wire wound into a coil ( you could wrap it around your finger). Simple as. It's just a feedback effect. The magnetic field from one coil interacting with the coil next to it and " chocking" high frequencies. There's nothing layman in any of this it's just Physics at its root.
I experimented with my crossovers for years and not only learned a lot, but increased the quality of sound; however, when I converted my speakers to an active crossover... it was then I started hearing what I wanted.
The quality of parts in speakers matters just as much as the quality of parts in anything else you buy...it comes down to reliability, durability and consistency in performance...I work on knives for a living and I see these things play out on a daily basis...if it was all the same, the upgrades market would have failed pretty quickly if people weren't seeing and hearing the difference of the money they spent
I changed tone caps in my guitar amp, and it made a huge difference. Same value components, but different materials. It was substantial enough to convince me not to waste time arguing with deniers. There's no reasoning with them. They will only stare at numbers on a bench, and rigged test that support their claim. They also have unlimited free time for debate, rather than conducting actual experiments. Deniers never get involved in anything that would prove their theory wrong. If they do they blame the results on environmental variables. If that fails they will say that the results weren't substantial enough to justify the expense. Same set of arguments every time. The like to place the burden of proof on someone else. Rather than explaining real world results, they go to the math first. It's bizarre. Ignore them.
Looks like you are starting to ruffle some feathers Danny, asked a famous reviewer to show us the crossover & after a bit of waffle, I think the answer was NO!, In fact , I think he would like you to provide audio samples of before & after, to prove that upgrading parts actually improves the sound of a speaker. It would seem taking the top off an amplifier to have a look is fine but not speakers!, You wouldn't buy a car without having a look under the bonnet... I am going to keep asking the question, I hope others do as well, if the crossover is built to the same standard as the rest of a speaker, then why not show it, regardless of budget, keep up the good work👍
This was interesting. I would however like some AB sound tests and/or oscilloscope read-outs to actually show this difference. It would help to visualize impact using different types of parts
Excellent discussion. I used to sell those Usher Be-718's BTW. Then someone from Usher told a customer by my store, to go into my store and listen to them, then call him and he'd give them a better price than we could. So that was the day I stopped selling Usher. Manufacturers turning on their retailers is running rampant right now, especially in the days of Covid. They're using us for the showroom experience, then they're selling direct to the customer. Many are even withholding inventory to their dealers but showing it in-stock online on their websites, so they get the sale, and we don't. It's sad. Anyway, I want to design a speaker with top-notch parts like you've got here because I know it makes a difference. Also, I've got JBL K2 S9900's now in my personal reference system. You've got me wondering what parts they used in the crossover. Hmm.
I would like to subject this guy to a blind sound test of these different parts. I imagine it would be like the time I was debating the wisdom of buying expensive components such as his brand new 20 channel equalizer... I finally said that I thought he couldn't even tell if the EQ was even on (he had just spent hours fine tuning every channel) and while he scoffed and laughed at me I flipped off the EQ, turned up the volume slightly, and held my hand over the on/off EQ light and asked him "is it on or off" ... he listened intently... then cracked a big smile and said with 100% confidence "It's on!" I removed my hand showing him the EQ was in fact off. How about the right woofer and piezo = no crossovers at all!
Low sales = higher msrp - so more profit margins on less units sold - They’re looking to score big on the high end I don’t blame them if a few people are willing to spend -that’s the American way -free enterprise man
@@jamesrobinson9176 not out touch just giving a reason for the crazy prices on hi end as there’s still great value on mid fi products --I know the business -musical instrument manufactures are going this route -China made less expensive and US ,euro -MIJ ( very high labor rates not just parts $ as Danny always brings up but labor rates )will be very expensive and more exclusive as less and less people are purchasing new hi end goods Stereo manufactures most of which are basically small Businesses in scale may be out of touch to a certain degree as unlike a phone or tv computer a stereo is not a real world item anymore, but they have to sell product and make moolah to obviously stay in biz
I haven't built anything as of yet, but I'm learning a lot from your videos on this subject.. It's very interesting to learn of the quality or bad quality of components inside of a speaker. Most people don't know what they're paying for. Same for computers could be said. Thank you for your knowledge.....
I would like to see a comparison. I would like to see how a crossover with cheap components compares to a expensive crossover with the same values just better quality components. I would like to see how it affects the sound. Keep the videos coming. I never miss them
David Frazier best way to find out is to do it yourself (been down that path plenty of times) used duelland caps for my power supply for the clock in a cd player transport
Buy a used set of speakers, pull it open, replace the components for the midlevel stuff shown here for 50 bucks or so and go to town listning to stuff. It will give you all the snsweres you are searching for.
There are more values to a cap and inductor than just the Farad and Henry values like esr, esl for Capacitor esr, epc, epr for inductor. You have to look at the data sheets to see what is best for your application/tune around it. It is very interesting to listen to a person explain that without numbers.
Yes parts matter. I am particularly intrigued by the comment made about high purity copper wire vs silver coated Teflon due to its pores state. I use Teflon coated silver clad wire to listen to my speakers. Phase shift in theory is an issue and in some cases (for example bad insulation resistance i.e. too low impedance) But Teflon has excellent resistance and is a very good insulator, but as you said needs the silver cladding to prevent spot welding between multi-strand wires. Inakustik make good wires too. Would it be better to use pure silver to negate this issue? I also like your Polyethylene reference for insulation because this shows your transparency regarding what wire to use and insulation. I really appreciate your video. Thanks.
This is really cool, and it sounds like a lot of this could be demonstrated with some measuring tools like an oscilloscope or multi meter. Would be interesting to see the difference.
To even see 1% THD on a sine wave is really tough to see on an oscilloscope. Distortion is a change in shape of the frequency. Here is a little secret about the universe, the Fourier theorem. Any signal, no matter how complex the shape is nothing more than the sum of multiple sine waves of different frequencies. Most distortion analyzers can measure something a million times smaller than the original signal (-120db) while some better equipment can go to 10 million times small (-140db). For example .01% second harmonic distortion is present, what does that mean. Well if we are measuring 1kHz sine wave, then that means that at the output there is not only 1kHz but also now 2kHz but -60db below the 1kHz input signal. If you know your maths that's a difference of 1000. So that means at the output we can have 1000v at 1khz and 1v of 2kHz added together. Do you really think if something 1000 times smaller is going to be audible? Most likely not but -60d isn't really a great number in regard to fidelity, your typical DAC is reaching -120db easily now which is a million times smaller. We have the ability to measure very small differences in signal shape. Beyond measuring the difference in shape of a signal then we can also measure the difference in amplitude (peak potential), difference in phase (time difference between input/output). If the signal itself hasn't changed, which we can easily measure then there can be zero audible change. So when this fool is saying okay we measure no change but there is still an audible change, it's BS. When he makes a statement of "we don't know how to measure the correct things" that only means he has no idea what he is measuring and he also has no clue about electronics in a serious educational sense; e.g. he is a hack to the highest degree and take what he says with a grain of salt or else you will empty your wallet for nothing while making his wallet fatter. To give him credit, I don't know how or what he measured, if he is just looking at an oscilloscope screen it's not going to tell you very much because it's not accurate enough to notice even a 1% distortion, it still looks like a nice clean sine wave. He needs at the very least a distortion analyzer good down to at least -100db to be even meaningful. At -100db most things are considered not audible because it's such a small difference being 100,000 times smaller. If he used a distortion analyzer and did a few other tests he could definitively say if there is an audible difference or not. Instead he just hand waves like a prophet from god and states what he says as gospel when it's truly garbage.
Some measuring tools LOL. What you gonna see, some numbers on a display and /or a bouncing line on a screen. Good luck interpreting even an enormous difference on those. If you are able to interpret anything at all.
Excellent video explaining the importance of parts quality. For the naysayers, like anything out there yes there is the law of diminishing returns but like anything else if you want the best then you have to pay; to simply say that why do we need copper foil capacitors in speakers when some cheap metalized film ones will do its the same as saying why do you need titanium screws in a race cars when steel ones will do....its the fraction of seconds that you are persuing, same in audio its the tiny differences that at the top level make the big differences...
I started designing building speakers and I been using 14 gauge Jantzen inductors and Jantzen capsitors the blue oxygen free copper wire and silver solder and solder point to point and I noticed a huge difference my speakers are better quality than most higher end speakers I even saw high end speakers using steel connectors . I get in arguments about if it makes a difference on websites and I don't care I would rather use better quality than take a chance . So what if I spend $30 for one capsitor it's my design I would spend more if could
It seems that simply filming in the listening room has had a great effect on the audio and visuals, as the room is treated and the backdrop is not busy ;) Always love your content! I’d watch if you filmed in the back of a dump truck in a swamp with a wild onion hanging out your teeth.
If speaker manufacturers can improve the sound of their products by just adding a few more dollars in xover parts, could it be they deliverately do this to justify the price increase in their more expensive models?
According to Danny even the expensive models have poor quality parts. It is far more likely that it just doesn't make a worthwhile difference very often. Danny's opinions on this and emphasis he puts on crossover parts are at odds with the science and general consensus within the loudspeaker design community.
@@myleso-k2068 It is more a question of distortion versus power level. No matter if it is the cabinet construction, the drivers or the crossover, audible distortion will obviously increase with the power level. So, crossover quality is only on parameter to check. If the cabinet resonate at certain frequencies and power level, the sound will suffer accordingly. The same applies to drivers, poor design and construction will impede the possibility to perform at higher power. We have to remember most of the mesurements are taken at only 1 watt of power, hence we can't see the distortion creeping in at that level. This is one of the reasons some speakers sound changes dramatically when you crank up the volume. Every company have their recipe to squeeze the most bang for their buck of investment. Crossover parts are one of the strategies they use to save a few dollars and since most people do not open their speakers to look inside, they have no idea if they have good value for the asked price. Also, companies invest more in publicity and marketing strategies than research and devlopement (R&D). Having myself modified over 100 pairs in the last 35 years, the before and after changes are audible more if you push the volume. This is a consensus in the scientific community.
@@myleso-k2068 What Danny says, in so many ways, in many of his videos, makes complete sense. Every part of a speaker build has an effect on the output. The cabinet, the drivers themselves, the crossovers, everything. Absolutely everything. When his goal is to have a consistent signal that's as flat as can be, his goal is to accurately reproduce audio signal that was mastered by the artist in a production room. During production, when the audio is mastered, the artist and others dictate the strength of say The clash of a symbol or the guitar or the drum beat because that's how they want it blended. When that signal is played and sent out to a speaker, the moment a speaker design does not accurately represent a flat signal, you lose what the artist may or may not even have intended for you to hear. Even then, once you get a speaker to produce as flat as possible, your next challenge is the room that you're listening to it in. Crossover tuning to attempt to improve speaker design flaws and cabinetry flaws and sound room treatment so that way the audio can be heard as the original Mastered audio signal is sent to the speakers. Plus, if you're selling thousands and thousands of units, $100 or more in improved components makes a huge difference to the bottom end and sometimes that "savings" looks impressive on paper more so than adding more cost to some of these speakers that are already ridiculous in price. In the end, even the best produced and most accurate speaker with all of the best components can still not sound impressive in a room that sucks. So that's likely where the difference comes in to where people don't think that these components make the difference. I bet if you change the crossover components and listen to the speakers in an anechoic chamber you will hear every difference he speaks of.
@@myleso-k2068 As someone who built and designed his own speakers, as well as sold hifi for over a decade, expensive crossover components are a poor waste of resources. A $50 cap connected to a $50 Tweeter is insane, when a $5 cap connected to a $95 Tweeter will always sound better, all other things being equal. Let Danny compare two capacitors of the same value (Within 2%), one a cheap poly, and the other an expensive film cap, and connect them to a tweeter and measure the frequency response, impulse response, distortion levels, and decay, and show us the differences. If a copper film cap can make such an audible difference, it absolutely will show up in one of those measurements.
Interesting video. Only thing I struggle to wrap my head around is at what point is it better to get a better speaker with better drivers. Like yeah for a lot of people sending in their speakers they already own making them sound as good as possible within reason makes sense but in the situation where you're looking to buy speakers that you eventually plan to upgrade at what point does having the better driver make more of a difference. Like lets say you have a $500 budget, spending $100 on speaker and $400 on upgrades I would imagine would be worse than a $300 speaker with $200 of upgrades or $400 with $100 on upgrades assuming all speakers are reasonably well designed within their price target. Second questions is what makes more of a difference between parts and where they are assuming your upgrade isn't changing the design. Like lets say you have a $200 upgrade budget is it better to stack upgrades on one part like high end parts on tweeter and midrange parts on the woofer or upper midrange on both, etc. Also is there any difference in longevity these days with parts? For example I know older crossover parts can go out of spec or dry up so is it possible that might be the reason some parts are used over others?
I suppose it's going to come down to the speaker you are upgrading . Some may have great drivers and bad parts. Some may have bad drivers and parts . The crossover parts seem to be more expensive. Look at the xls encore the woofer is 30 and the tweeter is 50 . Not expensive but great drivers. You could spend hundreds even more on a crossover. The better drivers will insure there are less parts in the design which will result in a cheaper crossover in the long run.
@@toecutterjenkins Very true. Definitely a lot of variables especially considering a lot of the speakers that come through aren't designed as well as they could (rp600m comes to mind). I guess I'm just thinking when as many variables are proportionally even as possible, where are the high value parts. I guess thinking of it from a diy sense is better but if I put all my money into one side of the puzzle be it drivers or crossover parts where an I getting a better return on my money.
@@TylerStout I have encores and for the price I don't think you can go wrong as a starting point. Especially if you have the skill to build the boxes yourself. I used 4 pieces of 1x12x48" mdf shelving from HD the cost less than 4 bucks each.
Instead of handwaiving explanations, this was tested at ASR. Bottom line was that any poly cap is as good as any other poly cap, and “improvements” beyond that have no measurable effect. So just use low cost poly caps and air core chokes and don’t listen to “this cap sounds different to that” because it simply isn’t true.
They are just taking measurements and theorizing a result over there. They do no real science. Nothing they say over there can even be taken seriously.
Have you done a video on cabinet physics, especially concerning cabinets that are designed to bring out the best audio on set of speakers? Are there speakers are more limited by cabinet design than parts? Really enjoy the channel.
Speaker material, coil material and magnet are crucial. If you look at pro level speakers, you get spl’s of 119, 125 or even 135 spl. Crossovers are important for splitting frequencies but a higher spl speaker will require less power and usually have better clarity at lower power. Even better,if the system can have a linear power curve through the EQ section, then clarity is greatly increased over the power range
I never understood why audiophiles still design boards on a 2 dimensional plane when space is not really an issue. My 3d circuits capture the crispness in the highs plus low frequency depth and complexity with an absolutely flirtatious mid-range sweetness while cancelling out the bad vibes and irresponsible harmonic overtones that have led to the downfall of art in the 21st century. For the internal wiring I use hope. Really, a true miracle.
Thank you for this video! I am now inspired to rebuild my 1990 M&K S-1b satellites with Solen caps. May end up doing bypass caps as well but not a first. Dayton audio resistors you showed. Solid core wire you sell. CMC short binding posts. A second crossover board so the coils can be separated and arranged for less interference. I’m sure more could be done but this is pretty extensive for my knowledge level. Hopefully will have some nice performance changes when all done. Thank you Danny for your videos and knowledge sharing.
It'd be very cool to see a few crossover designs, using varying price points of components.. then review and abx test and see what is thought to be best. Really nice info here, thanks for taking the time to share.
I can say this as a truck driver and part time mechanic, parts do matter. I can get inexpensive sensors, or other mechanical bits, and rarely do they work, or last longer than what the OEM produces. I cannot see it being any different in the manufacture of audio speakers and gear. Just as in automotive parts, I can walk into a plant making say interior pieces or carpet. They have lines for say GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda. The first three carmakers are of lesser quality than the last two. It is no different in audio or electrical bits. And as Danny stated, for only a few pennies more the quality can be had.
@Michael Wright I can whole heartedly agree that quality and price do matter. But for some reason in the audiophile community there seems to be a large contingent of "Snake Oil Salesmen", who will happily take large sums of your money for something that does absolutely nothing for the end sound. If you look at a price/quality ratio graph you will see it's logarithmic, meaning in the beginning of the curve there are good quality improvements for not much of a price increase. However the curve soon starts to rapidly rise and the price skyrockets for little if any improvement in quality. This is where the "Snake Oil Salesmen" like to live by selling you $10,000/ft speaker wire and telling you that if you can't hear the difference between that and $1/foot speaker wire there is something wrong with you because they can hear it. Then they tell you there are no measuring instruments that can verify that but if your a true audiophile you could definitely tell the difference.
100% Danny. I just recently upgraded the crossover parts, binding posts, internal wiring (from you, thanks, Danny) in a pair of Forte i’s I got from my neighbor. I also put dynamat on the backs of the speakers. I did 1 speaker at a time to see the difference between them, and it was easily audible. So, yes…parts absolutely matter.
Ive git a pair of frotes im looking to upgrade, starting out by using the JEM kit which js the authorised electrolytic cap kit. From there im going to upgrade to film and maybe other components like resostors and inductors. Do you have a kost kf what upgrades you did?
@@Dunhill-gk3csHi there. Apologies for missing your comment. You likely know by now that Danny has a kit specifically for the Forte l’s. I unfortunately don’t remember the total cost, but if you look at the schematic for the Forte l’s, I replaced each speakers parts with 1.5uf and 1uf caps with Clarity caps (the purple ones), and a less expensive Solen for the 47uf going to the woofer, as it’s not as crucial as the other caps for the squawker or tweeter. I replaced the 40 ohm 5 watt resistor with either Mills or Ohmite, and the 3mH and .16mH inductors with Jantzen (Mundorf are nice too) ones. I left the T 10A as is. Oh, I also replaced the internal wire with some stranded OFC copper ones I got from Danny. The total cost for everything was no more than $100-$150 or so. As I mentioned, I did one at a time, and the results were clear. As I let the parts break in, they became a bit more mellow on the top end, the mids more defined, and tighter bass. The Forte l’s have a 12” passive radiator, where all the others have a 15”. I hope that was somewhat helpful, and it can’t hurt to give Danny a call. If you haven’t seen it, check out the vid he did of a Forte l. I may have just gotten the kit from him, but did my upgrades before his video.
Thanks for the explanation on by-pass Caps! Was on the fence with them until I tried it out; it's a very good bang for buck 'by-pass' to outright upgrading larger electro caps (~100uf) to film caps due to costs and size.
@@nathanvanstralendorff2405 I found it tightened up the bass when it was added to the LF section of a 3-way circuit. Ideally it's completely upgraded from electro to film when possible.
@@nathanvanstralendorff2405 hope it goes well! I used the Cornell Dublier 940c 0.01uf for bypass duties. I believe Vishay also has a notable cap for this purpose too.
@@QuinYip I've had Vishay in the past and some Russian PIO Glass envelop which were really nice, sweet and musical. Do/did you like the Cornell bypass caps?
Do you have any examples where you've taken the same speaker, and without changing the design of the crossover in terms of component values, done cheese components vs high end components and had very different measurements? I know measurement is not everything, but it might help to quieten the naysayers. I'm interested to hear your strip down of the Wharfedales. I have a pair of Diamond 121s which use similar drivers I think.
@@dannyrichie9743 thanks for the link. I had a listen and I do agree that B sounded better even with a pair of low end headphones. Slightly more clarity. Is there any discernible difference between waveforms if one is subtracted from the other? Could a test with say 5 distinct frequencies being played simultaneously and subtraction of the waveforms show small phase shifts or other effects on amplitude?
Did that to my own speakers. Not being able to send a tower speaker across the pond to Danny, I asked Monitor Audio if they could supply a crossover diagram for my old GR20. They were kind enough to do so, even though the HF cap didn’t match the one in the speaker. Difference was fantastic and 3 months on they are still running in and sounding better all the time.
@@markcarrington8565 I have a pair of RX6 and I am afraid of looking at the crossover :) so basically you asked for the diagram from MA, bought the new high quality parts with same specs and got better results… right ?
@@anthonyzimmer80 absolutely! I’m sure they wouldn’t share details of the new ranges, however, if, like me, you’re a few versions behind, they might respond to an enthusiast of the brand. Good luck.
Hi there Danny. Many thanks. I'm just getting back into building a system, for the first time in many years. Before I begin, I'm repairing the old stuff I have. Just to see what's going on. A/B test. Now there is a DAC, streaming audio, and power supply EMI/RF, isolation. Plus 1 value in some column if there is an imaginary tracking system for that 'stuff.' Anyway, I have ototoxic hearing loss. Building a system anyway, starting with repairing the old things I have. I cannot predict what I can be able to hear. Technics 'new class A' and the first speakers to use are Magnat 144 series. Thanks again. Ohm L2s crossover boards are being redone, you have helped me a bit. As much as anyone, Kent Larson has a 2 minute video demonstrating inductors and capacitors in a signal.
You could take things a lot further. Buy a box of the best you can, then measure each part and match up so you can have the same or as close possible in the left and right. My price starts at $ 1000 plus parts. 😊
Parts matter and some matter more. But most interestingly is what it is in the part that makes the difference. For example, what exactly is it in certain capacitors that make them sound better even with the same capacitance? Of course capacitors are measurable, so it would be nice to see measurements showing why they sound different.
Just as a healthy heart depends on our habits and keeps us alive and kicking. The heart of a fantastic pair of speakers is all about the crossover matching well with what is manufactured. I don't put cheap poly caps in the crossovers I build. But then I love to hear speakers that reveal the fullness of the studios intentions.
Sir! I've listened to audiophile experts for years and I know when someone knows what they are talking about. I have no tolerance for snake oil and You Are the Best at cutting through the Snake Oil! I MUST Subscribe to your RUclips channel. SHALOM!
@Albert Jennings I agree he is one of the best "Snake Oil Salesmen" out there. Love his techno mumbo jumbo like "smear". 🤣 I would love for him to tell me how to measure it and at what levels are considered good, bad, acceptable "smear".
good explanation of how the parts work, but don't forget to mention that capacitors only pass AC and block DC (as do transformers) which is an important aspect of how valve amplifiers work. (great explanations of that by fellow Texan resident Uncle Doug on his RUclips channel)
okay I give up. while there is no and will be no actual explanation of differences in performance, da big components look cool and that's good enough for me to respect the craft
It's not super easy to measure or show on a graph, but smearing of cheap components is kind of like ghosting & motion blur on a cheap LCD monitor vs a nice "gaming" monitor with a high refresh rate and faster response time. Different cap types have different properties, just like different panel types. The trouble is that it's difficult to convert concepts in audio like "tone" into easily understandable visual graphs. I find that the TV/monitor analogy are the most similar and effective way of explaining it.
@@ar_xiv I wont know till I get them finished. ;P But I'm here for every step of the process, and haven't been steered wrong yet. But I enjoy the experience and have learned a lot. Its why I built both entry level and really high end DIY for this project.
The right crossover dictates performance moreso than the quality of the parts. Danny is emphasizing the wrong aspect. I'll take the right crossover with cheap parts over a bad crossover with expensive parts anyday
What is the "right crossover" I assume you mean one designed to match the drivers among other things, regardless of your definition of the right crossover, you need a properly designed crossover with decent parts to get the best out of your speakers, if you think parts do not matter, you are wrong.
Danny, you're great with graphs. I would love to see some graphs visualizing the comparison between these components. That would really help people to internalize the importance of good parts.
Graphing a capacitor, an inductor, or a resistor will only show or confirm the value. It will not show the purity or integrity of the signal that passed through it. It you are looking for sound quality on a chart then you are looking in the wrong place.
@@dannyrichie9743 interesting. I just figured there'd be some way to visualize that signal integrity, even if the measured difference is subtle. Shows what I know! I absolutely believe you and your peers when you say there's a difference, I just wish there was some way to gauge that difference per situation.
@@Spaniard47 The effects of poor components can totally be visualized graphically. Not in a frequency plot, maybe in a waterfall or distortion plot, but it would be entirely obvious in audioband waveform distortions on an oscilloscope (ringing, energy storage, over/undershoot, over/underdamping, slow slew rates, microphonics, adjacent component field interactions, etc). But we have to limit such comparisons to the audioband; many advertised "better" components are only better in the MHz or GHz bands, and of little use to audio.
On the theme of parts quality, I need to recap my tube amp and tube DAC. I figure that I need to replace them by the same capacitance value. One answer I can’t find though is about voltage rating. I’d be grateful if someone can weigh in: I can choose a replacement capacitor of the same voltage or higher. Many of the nice capacitors sometimes have a higher voltage rating. Although from an electrical point of view it is safe to use, is there an effect on the audio quality to replace a cap with higher voltage rating? Thank you!
Higher voltage cap is ok but costs more for no real benefit. Spend your money on better material/architecture cap. For a coupling cap it is hard to beat Miflex copper for price performance. A lot of the sound of a Duelund without the cost. Down a notch in price, the Obbligato Gold is much better than a Sonic cap.
I recently built the Samba MT speakers from parts express and the one built with provided resistors and caps.,was irritating to listen to, I replaced the other kit with solen caps and jantsen resistors and the difference is very audible .I am a believer, and for just a few bucks, very satisfied!
This is so true. I tried out adding some pure copper foil bypass caps from Duelund on my designs recently (bypassing clarity cap and Jantzen Superior Z caps) and I can’t go back. The depth and speed is... beyond anything I’ve heard before.
Can't agree more. I went from the Jantzen Cross Caps, to the Standard Z and then the Superior -Z on the HF circuit; Can't go back once you've heard the improvement, it's like peeling layers off veil away each time!
If true, then there's a way to measure and prove it. I'd like to see an effort made to demonstrate your claims with measurements. I think most hobby folks can easily understand the advantage of a capacitor or inductor that maintains constant characteristics across the intended range and drive levels. Iron cores and electrolytic caps are both easily verifiably non-linear in the range of acoustic frequency (and electrolytics have terrible tolerance and loss of capacity over time anyway, making matters worse). Once we get to poly caps though, proving there's an advantage in going up the range beyond is going to get more difficult. Is there a way you can measure it and prove it? Also is there a way to prove that a $600 capacitor is a better investment than an active crossover multi-amp approach?
You don't really get audio, it's not some scientific chart. We don't actually possess the equipment to accurately measure what the ear hears. We can do things like frequency response, impulse, decay but what that tells you is actually pretty limited. The best thing you can really do is try different pieces and see what you think. I can hear obvious difference between caps for example. Resistors, not really. People looking for specs or measurements will honestly never be satisfied. It's just not what music is even though it's a useful tool for sales because it's where people typically start, kind of like this channel. It's entry-level DIY building and of course is designed to sell you things regardless of if they make the speaker better. I mean they might, but they might not. you have to try it. The charts really aren't going to tell you anything, your ears will
First class information. I often choose speakers based on the quality of the components in the crossover. But it is often not worth making changes in the crossover due to the poor quality of the speakers.
Great video! I really enjoy knowing my speakers are running better than stock, having GR Reserch modifications. Not only are the modifications fun, with a good way to get to know your speakers, it also is a great bang for your buck in sound quality.
As a physicist, I find this highly cringeworthy. Where did you "learn" the basics of electronics? "shorter wavelengths tend to cancel each other out" (3:50) as explanation for the low-pass property of a coil is just plain stupid. Not to mention "shorter wavelengths jumping from one [winding] to another" for the high pass :D
I think you are being hyper-critical here...as, it sound like he is trying to convey the basic concepts in a more palatable way, aimed at to more entry-level enthusists.
I get what your saying but most of us kind of know what he's talking about and not being to critical. Probably should have stated that the inductor accelerates the frequency rolloff based on the inductance of the inductor. The passive crossover parts filters their respective frequencies.
as a physicist, interested in crossovers, might i ask you some serious questions? 1) i notice many use a technique to measure 'free air' impedance. since driver impedance must be used in formulas to derive values for inductors and capacitors - isnt it pointless, or even stupid, to measure impedance of driver in free air? shouldnt the driver be mounted in the cabinet and entire unit placed in room to be used in - to make accurate driver impedance measurement? question 2. driver impedance will change with frequency. since the inductor and capacitor values to be calculated are based on the 'crossover frequency', isnt it stupid to enter into the calculation formulas the so- called 'nominal impedance' of the driver. for absolute accuracy of the calculations, shouldnt the component values be calculated using the driver impedance AT THE ACTUAL CROSSOVER FREQUENCY? final question. with a 4th order linkwitz-riley circuit, most literature stupidly says the drivers will be 360 degrees out of phase (and they show a sine wave to demonstrate the two respective drivers will be in phase as they reproduce a sine wave at the crossover freq to satisfy the readers of those articles). but once again, isnt this simple mindness or stupidity? as no one listens to sine waves. if the 'attack' soundfront of a drum thump were monitored by two mics in front of, say the woofer and midrange, we would clearly see one driver would be ahead of the other in displaying the attack peak waveform. for perfect fidelity, wouldnt it require to move either of those two drivers front or back the distance of one full wavelength of the crossover frequency to bring them into perfect phase? im desiring to design build a crossover, and none of these important aspects are even discussed at most literature or websites. finally, im aware of how emfs move between inductors (aka transformers). and yet no one mentions the need to either greatly space apart the inductors so there is no unwanted crosstalk, or enclosing the coils in faraday cages so the emfs dont radiate to nearby coils. any insight on this? it seems like only you and i think in these specific ways...
Great overview - - for crossovers - good design even with non-polar electrolytic capacitors could be better than poor design with some boutique capacitors. Duelund - cast capacitors may be wondrous (?) but are stupid expensive. DC-Link caps have very good spec and not horribly expensive. PIO type including old hermetically sealed Russian foil and metalized paper type may be used in some systems to tonal advantage. Charge coupling is worth a try imo. Motor run caps can be found very cheap and probably as good as most. Dayton offers very nice steel-core inductors at nice prices.
Resistors, inductors and caps doesnt sound: they do their job and thats all = frequency filters, they just let or do not pass certain frequencies. More important is the design of the crossover and speakers itself. Nice snake-oil video. Funny to read: GREAT INFO! Suuuure... 18$ for a resistor, what a joke...
@@Mike_Jones68I studied a electronic and audio and acoustic engineering, so maybe but not.... So no, I don't believe what a youtuber tells me as a fact because yes, and even less if the information is incorrect. Blah.
Well they do matter but design matters the most. In addition the most expensive is not necessarily the best in all situations. Also it depends to a certain degree what the application is. What might be a game changer in a midrange circuit may be almost trivial in a woofer circuit.
Thanks for such an informative video! I bet I learned FAR more useful information about crossovers by watching your video than I have learned reading 3 months worth of reading. Again, thank you!
Thank you for this clear explanation of the crossover components that is geared toward the layperson or non electrical engineer crowd. Now I feel like I have at least a very basic understanding of how all of these components combine to influence the output of the speaker.
Yeah it's overkill to the point where I now have to build a separate box for it cuz the giant cap in the tweeter circuit makes the crossover far too large to fit in the cabinet.. lol A smaller 250V copper cap with the same uF value would make it viable to fit, but I got them on sale for a decent price. less than a pair of 240 volt rated copper caps.. plus it also allows me to swap out the crossover with one of much lower quality for fun. Which I've already built that costs maybe $25 per board? Iron core inductors in the woofer circuit along with electrolytic caps, sand cast resistors in the tweeter circuit and cheap poly caps. Not to mention super cheap binding posts and spring steel bananas. lol I personally wouldn't recommend most people going overboard, but I want these to have my system grow into them. The fully upgraded level we offer for the NX Studios is by far the best bang for buck option. And probably 25% the cost of my own crossovers.. lol But its all for my own enjoyment
@@hoth2112 I like overboard, it appeals to my nature. I'm upgrading the external crossovers on my Pure Audio Project Quintet 15 Horn 1 open baffle speakers, with Jupiter 33uF Copper Foil Paper & Wax capacitors, Mundorf Aircore VLCU7 10mH Copper Foil Paper 7awg coils, and Dueland Silver Graphite resistors on the L-Pad. I had to special order the caps and coils. For the bypass caps, I will test both the V-CAP CuTF and Miflex KPCU. I ordered a black polycarbonate mounting plate from ePlastics, CNC'd to my layout. All of the components will be mounted on top with all the wiring concealed in the base, including the all of the Tywrap heads.
@@ericharrelson2045 that's gunna be one heck of a build. Heard good thigns about those graphite resistors. I could have gone overboard with the capacitor in the woofer circuit, but size would have been a struggle to manage. Especially for a pair of bookshelf speaker. Maybe ill consider it for a nice set of towers
@@miheadhurts the trick would be getting parts in. Tho I expect only a small number would jump on that. Plus I would make a couple changes to bring the size down a bit, so it will actually fit into the speaker. Lol
I always love this debate. I like most here have post grad degrees in science and understand psychoacoustic .. sure we want an improvement in our efforts to chase the perfect sound. I have done many things Danny has suggested.. my brain says the acoustic difference in same value resistors and inductors couldn’t possibly be different right..? Ohhh so wrong. I have spent thousands on this hobby Xover design predominantly on different caps / inductors on my Crites pre production model. I can say without reservation, side by side A/B every single time , there absolutely is a difference in sound in caps / inductors introduced in a design maintaining the exact same values. Unfortunately not everyone can recognize a difference due to hearing loss and we have so few brick and mortar stores to audition high end audio these days. “Magnolia Room doesn’t count” lol. If your hearing is not impaired, be ever so thankful, protect it and everything does matter in the signal path. You don’t have to spend a lot of money to get much improved performance.
What is a 'smearing effect' in terms of how the components *measure*? Smearing/spatial cues - its hifi BS - what's the engineering beyond a capacitor acting as a store with no resistance, and an inductor acting as an impedance with no saturation and no resistance and no capacitance? If anything, this just reinforces my commitment to doing crossover in DSP, You can get *exactly* what you want, with very high repeatability and predictability, with a downside of figuring where to do the volume control and extra amps. I do understand that some of these products have a performance that is closer to the ideal wrt resistance, linearity etc. But the cost becomes astronomic.
I must state that Danny Richie knows his stuff. As for resistors, I built my own with pure graphite packed into Teflon tubes. And PVC insulation sounds horrible as it absorbs sound wave lengths.
Dal Migliori! WOW - now I totally get it. Wish I had this lecture when I started out in electronics because JC theory SUUUCKEDDDDDDD~!!!! ~@@~ This is like the advantage that Wozniak had starting out - basically same idea - optimizing circuits through available components (in his case mostly A/D hybrid logic circuits.) Which came from his father's eng. work in HP testers and calculators.
Yep, if you can hear the difference between same-gauge speaker cables, then I guess you will also hear the difference between same rating resistors. LOL...You also believe the sun and the universe rotate around the earth, which you believe to be flat, too. PT Barnum said it well.
If you cannot hear the difference, perhaps a different hobby should be in your future. By the way, at the edge of the earth there is a ladder so you don't have to fall off.
@@rfbead321 Guess what. So am I, and so have I. I can hear the differences in most of what Danny describes. There are many more that he doesn't talk about. Open your mind and do some experimenting on your own. It really doesn't matter to me, and it could be you are not able to hear subtle differences. Either way just don't dismiss things flippantly.
i like how you speak about it everything in electronics everything matters , let me show you these caps we sell . Because god forbid you have Electronic crossover that every professional uses , be it in studio , or PA systems , or even high quality HiFi .
I really appreciate your channel, just can't shake the feeling that your speaker upgrades must also involve upgrading parts and wiring in amps and other devices in the signal path meaning that it is in fact a never ending road with our passionate hobby 😁
Кино
If someone says parts don't matter, they haven't built a guitar amp or crossover or anything. Some things don't sound as drastic but everything has its own personality going on pretty much to different degrees
I am 71 yrs old and wish I was young again, with good hearing and time to tinker with my 7 year old Diamond 10.4, Cayin EL-34 tube amp and Marantz cd-6004 which are in my spacious bedroom. I have mild hearing loss in both ears, lower midrange in the left and higher midrange on the right. Yet, I am happy with the smooth, seemingly clear sounds as I think my brain helps to balance what I'm hearing. I enjoy your program and appreciate all you do. My speakers can go down to 38hz and can feel them specially in Saint Saens Organ concerto.
1:18 Without waching the whole video i can absolute agree with this statement. There is a big difference between cheap and 'good' parts. But there's also a border when 'high-end' parts become expensive without hearable results. Speaker cables are such a money pit.
24:00 is possibly the greatest disdain ever displayed against pvc. Love you, man.
Noice. Now if only this video had measurements to show actual differences instead of a guy just sighing at things. :-P
I don't normally leave comments, but this is one great video man.. All of your points 100%, and the bypass cap trick is a great take away. Thanks.
While I absolutely respect speaker builders and the incredible efforts from the audiophile community to achieve better quality, I do feel there is a huge market in “audio grade” components, cables etc and a lot of incentive to sell to the community. So while it’s interesting to hear opinions from experts, I am yet to be convinced that components that measure the same would have any difference to our ears.
Come on over. I'll convince you easily by just letting you listen.
@@dannyrichie9743 I'll take you up on that. Will you perform a blind test on camera here to show your ability to discern difference in crossover capacitors? It will be a simple test, you only need to listen and write down your answers, I'll do the rest. The results will be shown in the same video. I think it would be prudent to do an analysis of networks with measurements first to show any electrical differences, then the blind test to see if there is a difference in signal then how audible is it.
What say you? Would you do this test on camera?
@@captainbeefheart8797 Sure, come on down.
@@glengatt3941 I wish it were true that none of this made any difference. It would make my job infinitely easier, and far more predictable. Unfortunately for pretenders to the throne, EVERYTHING done in an audio component makes a difference to varying degrees. The difference between a true master of the art, and the hobbyist is the true understanding and experience that comes from spending DECADES of your life perfecting the craft of creating the fine instruments we refer to broadly as “ High End” audio.
This microfarad is faster than that microfarad. End of discussion.
This video finally put everything I could hear into perspective. This is absolutely the best crossover video I've ever seen. Thank you!
it happens in the mind, not the hardware
Very good material. This is all true and I often tell our company's clients. Crossover parts have a great influence on the sound of a stereo system . Best Regards Wilk-Audio-Projekt
To receive decades of information from some one free of cost is amazing.Being in electronics for ever I can remember when there was no were to find answers was trail and error this is priceless.Can you do video on 12 volt system like JL to speakers subs and there amps.
Fantastic Video! Thank you😀 for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you for sharing this knowledge. You really know your stuff.
Great content, Danny! I’m the guy JEFF that bought the NX Extreme kit from you about three years ago. Still haven’t installed the drivers or painted the loudspeakers I did buy all the parts from you with the exception of the New Rez that I’ll have to buy from you probably towards the end of the year of 2025, will be applying the epoxy primer and urethane paint in the next 3 to 6 months because the weather here where I live is really cold. 🥶
Danny, love your videos. I bought my first stereo in 1970 when I was in the USAF. Everyone in the barracks was buying stereos despite the fact that we were only getting paid about $200 per month. Some of the guys who had been stationed in Vietnam came back with very high end stereos, cameras and other equipment. It was kind of crazy but that's what bored 19-22 year old single guys spent their money on. My first speakers were AR-5s which cost $175 each. My first receiver was the Heathkit AR-15 which I think cost about $300. I used them until 1995 when the woofer cone cracked. Since then I have purchased many other speakers without really understanding the specifications. In the last few weeks I have learned more from your you-tube videos than l learned during all those years.
If I could make a suggestion; it would help me follow the discussion if you could use an electronic pointer when discussing the performance graphs. I would also help if you define what the axes represent on each of graphs. Thanks, keep up the great work.
I'm going up to that next level right now. Migraine just kicked in, and thus I now have partial loss of vision. It started just after the beginning of watching this video. Fortunately that is as far as it goes these days at 66 years old. Back when it first hit me long long ago, it caused a nasty headache, paralysis of my right arm, loss of speech, and numbness on the right side of my upper lip. Scared the heck out of me. Anyhow, after fixing all the 22 Faders in my 45 year old Soundcraftsmen PE2217 Preamp - Equalizer, I am trying to find out how I can use equipment to set things as best as possible while using my home made 1978 huge speakers. Well, that is as far as I can get, I can just barely read my text at this moment. Thank goodness for auto spell check.
Best explanation out there yet, in layman’s terms of what parts inside a crossover do and differences in quality. Thank Danny.
Sure but this is just a guy saying some stuff is better than other stuff without any actual evidence.
This video would have been so much better if he'd just measure the same crossover output with a cheap / small coild and again with an expensive coil.
Right now it's just "You know, some stuff is better then others, better buy THIS stuff because, well, I say so".
@@IUsedToBeAPygmy I ordered from GR and have it in my mid-fi gear and it sounds great. Don’t knock it ‘till you try it. And maybe you will see what he talking about 🙂
@@IUsedToBeAPygmy He already did that in another video. They measure the same but sound different. Which means the type of measurement that's usually done doesn't measure the type of difference that is heard.
Two cars with 300bhp might not do a 1/4 mile in the same amount of time. Are you going to say that because they "measure" the same, they are going to perform the same?
Air wound inductors. If you want layman's terms , it's just thick copper wire wound into a coil ( you could wrap it around your finger). Simple as. It's just a feedback effect. The magnetic field from one coil interacting with the coil next to it and " chocking" high frequencies. There's nothing layman in any of this it's just Physics at its root.
@@IUsedToBeAPygmy Yes, that is the nature of audiophoolery.
Great video!
I enjoyed all the clear cut info and it's great I can come back and watch it again! 👍😉
I experimented with my crossovers for years and not only learned a lot, but increased the quality of sound; however, when I converted my speakers to an active crossover... it was then I started hearing what I wanted.
Are you talking analog or digital active cross-overs?
@@kawmic7 I am using a DBX Drive Rack Pa2, between the preamp and the amplifiers.
@@russmaleartist so digital.
you probably didn't use $600 capasitors the size of coke cans :D
@@russmaleartist DBX Drive Rack Pa2 that's not even low end HiFi grade, it's a PA system component.
The quality of parts in speakers matters just as much as the quality of parts in anything else you buy...it comes down to reliability, durability and consistency in performance...I work on knives for a living and I see these things play out on a daily basis...if it was all the same, the upgrades market would have failed pretty quickly if people weren't seeing and hearing the difference of the money they spent
I changed tone caps in my guitar amp, and it made a huge difference. Same value components, but different materials. It was substantial enough to convince me not to waste time arguing with deniers. There's no reasoning with them. They will only stare at numbers on a bench, and rigged test that support their claim. They also have unlimited free time for debate, rather than conducting actual experiments. Deniers never get involved in anything that would prove their theory wrong. If they do they blame the results on environmental variables. If that fails they will say that the results weren't substantial enough to justify the expense. Same set of arguments every time. The like to place the burden of proof on someone else. Rather than explaining real world results, they go to the math first. It's bizarre. Ignore them.
Diminishing returns while chasing impossible perfection is asinine and does nothing but stroke egos.
Looks like you are starting to ruffle some feathers Danny, asked a famous reviewer to show us the crossover & after a bit of waffle, I think the answer was NO!, In fact , I think he would like you to provide audio samples of before & after, to prove that upgrading parts actually improves the sound of a speaker. It would seem taking the top off an amplifier to have a look is fine but not speakers!, You wouldn't buy a car without having a look under the bonnet... I am going to keep asking the question, I hope others do as well, if the crossover is built to the same standard as the rest of a speaker, then why not show it, regardless of budget, keep up the good work👍
Most informative breakdown I’ve seen yet. Thank you!
This was interesting. I would however like some AB sound tests and/or oscilloscope read-outs to actually show this difference. It would help to visualize impact using different types of parts
Excellent discussion. I used to sell those Usher Be-718's BTW. Then someone from Usher told a customer by my store, to go into my store and listen to them, then call him and he'd give them a better price than we could. So that was the day I stopped selling Usher. Manufacturers turning on their retailers is running rampant right now, especially in the days of Covid. They're using us for the showroom experience, then they're selling direct to the customer. Many are even withholding inventory to their dealers but showing it in-stock online on their websites, so they get the sale, and we don't. It's sad. Anyway, I want to design a speaker with top-notch parts like you've got here because I know it makes a difference. Also, I've got JBL K2 S9900's now in my personal reference system. You've got me wondering what parts they used in the crossover. Hmm.
Now I finally understand why the cost of parts make can difference.
I would like to subject this guy to a blind sound test of these different parts. I imagine it would be like the time I was debating the wisdom of buying expensive components such as his brand new 20 channel equalizer... I finally said that I thought he couldn't even tell if the EQ was even on (he had just spent hours fine tuning every channel) and while he scoffed and laughed at me I flipped off the EQ, turned up the volume slightly, and held my hand over the on/off EQ light and asked him "is it on or off" ... he listened intently... then cracked a big smile and said with 100% confidence "It's on!" I removed my hand showing him the EQ was in fact off. How about the right woofer and piezo = no crossovers at all!
interesting... a taste test for the ears...
So many of thee brands have raised their prices beyond what's reasonable
To Insanity!!😠😠😠😠😠😎😎
Low sales = higher msrp - so more profit margins on less units sold - They’re looking to score
big on the high end I don’t blame them if a few people are willing to spend -that’s the American way -free enterprise man
@@5Antvin I sure hope that was sarcasm, you're completely out of touch
@@jamesrobinson9176 not out touch just giving a reason for the crazy prices on hi end as there’s still great value on mid fi products --I know the business -musical instrument manufactures are going this route -China made less expensive and US ,euro -MIJ ( very high labor rates not just parts $ as Danny always brings up but labor rates )will be very expensive and more exclusive as less and less people are purchasing new hi end goods
Stereo manufactures most of which are basically small
Businesses in scale may be out of touch to a certain degree as unlike a phone or tv computer a stereo is not a real world item anymore, but they have to sell product and make moolah to obviously stay in biz
I haven't built anything as of yet, but I'm learning a lot from your videos on this subject.. It's very interesting to learn of the quality or bad quality of components inside of a speaker. Most people don't know what they're paying for. Same for computers could be said. Thank you for your knowledge.....
I would like to see a comparison. I would like to see how a crossover with cheap components compares to a expensive crossover with the same values just better quality components. I would like to see how it affects the sound. Keep the videos coming. I never miss them
Here you go: ruclips.net/video/cDl1hhT4ETU/видео.html
You can learn about our accessories. Erse brand😆
David Frazier best way to find out is to do it yourself (been down that path plenty of times) used duelland caps for my power supply for the clock in a cd player transport
Buy a used set of speakers, pull it open, replace the components for the midlevel stuff shown here for 50 bucks or so and go to town listning to stuff.
It will give you all the snsweres you are searching for.
There are more values to a cap and inductor than just the Farad and Henry values like esr, esl for Capacitor esr, epc, epr for inductor. You have to look at the data sheets to see what is best for your application/tune around it.
It is very interesting to listen to a person explain that without numbers.
Yes parts matter. I am particularly intrigued by the comment made about high purity copper wire vs silver coated Teflon due to its pores state. I use Teflon coated silver clad wire to listen to my speakers. Phase shift in theory is an issue and in some cases (for example bad insulation resistance i.e. too low impedance) But Teflon has excellent resistance and is a very good insulator, but as you said needs the silver cladding to prevent spot welding between multi-strand wires. Inakustik make good wires too. Would it be better to use pure silver to negate this issue? I also like your Polyethylene reference for insulation because this shows your transparency regarding what wire to use and insulation. I really appreciate your video. Thanks.
This is really cool, and it sounds like a lot of this could be demonstrated with some measuring tools like an oscilloscope or multi meter. Would be interesting to see the difference.
To even see 1% THD on a sine wave is really tough to see on an oscilloscope. Distortion is a change in shape of the frequency. Here is a little secret about the universe, the Fourier theorem. Any signal, no matter how complex the shape is nothing more than the sum of multiple sine waves of different frequencies. Most distortion analyzers can measure something a million times smaller than the original signal (-120db) while some better equipment can go to 10 million times small (-140db). For example .01% second harmonic distortion is present, what does that mean. Well if we are measuring 1kHz sine wave, then that means that at the output there is not only 1kHz but also now 2kHz but -60db below the 1kHz input signal. If you know your maths that's a difference of 1000. So that means at the output we can have 1000v at 1khz and 1v of 2kHz added together. Do you really think if something 1000 times smaller is going to be audible? Most likely not but -60d isn't really a great number in regard to fidelity, your typical DAC is reaching -120db easily now which is a million times smaller. We have the ability to measure very small differences in signal shape. Beyond measuring the difference in shape of a signal then we can also measure the difference in amplitude (peak potential), difference in phase (time difference between input/output). If the signal itself hasn't changed, which we can easily measure then there can be zero audible change. So when this fool is saying okay we measure no change but there is still an audible change, it's BS. When he makes a statement of "we don't know how to measure the correct things" that only means he has no idea what he is measuring and he also has no clue about electronics in a serious educational sense; e.g. he is a hack to the highest degree and take what he says with a grain of salt or else you will empty your wallet for nothing while making his wallet fatter. To give him credit, I don't know how or what he measured, if he is just looking at an oscilloscope screen it's not going to tell you very much because it's not accurate enough to notice even a 1% distortion, it still looks like a nice clean sine wave. He needs at the very least a distortion analyzer good down to at least -100db to be even meaningful. At -100db most things are considered not audible because it's such a small difference being 100,000 times smaller. If he used a distortion analyzer and did a few other tests he could definitively say if there is an audible difference or not. Instead he just hand waves like a prophet from god and states what he says as gospel when it's truly garbage.
@@captainbeefheart8797 most comprehensive reply I've read all week
Some measuring tools LOL.
What you gonna see, some numbers on a display and /or a bouncing line on a screen.
Good luck interpreting even an enormous difference on those.
If you are able to interpret anything at all.
never gonna happen, welcome to GR research.
@@captainbeefheart8797 if an oscilloscope cant measure the difference, how could i hear the difference?
Excellent video explaining the importance of parts quality. For the naysayers, like anything out there yes there is the law of diminishing returns but like anything else if you want the best then you have to pay; to simply say that why do we need copper foil capacitors in speakers when some cheap metalized film ones will do its the same as saying why do you need titanium screws in a race cars when steel ones will do....its the fraction of seconds that you are persuing, same in audio its the tiny differences that at the top level make the big differences...
Good analogy.
i never doubt my crossovers more than the day i started watching this channel... Darn now i know it can be much better !!
the best thing is speakers that don't use cross overs
I started designing building speakers and I been using 14 gauge Jantzen inductors and Jantzen capsitors the blue oxygen free copper wire and silver solder and solder point to point and I noticed a huge difference my speakers are better quality than most higher end speakers I even saw high end speakers using steel connectors . I get in arguments about if it makes a difference on websites and I don't care I would rather use better quality than take a chance . So what if I spend $30 for one capsitor it's my design I would spend more if could
Man Ron over at NRD has really been rubbing off on you. Production quality has gone way up! Great discussion as always Danny.
Yep, he is to blame for all of that.
It seems that simply filming in the listening room has had a great effect on the audio and visuals, as the room is treated and the backdrop is not busy ;) Always love your content! I’d watch if you filmed in the back of a dump truck in a swamp with a wild onion hanging out your teeth.
An enlightening, and thorough lecture, and demonstration on electronic parts, and design.🔉🎵🎶
If speaker manufacturers can improve the sound of their products by just adding a few more dollars in xover parts, could it be they deliverately do this to justify the price increase in their more expensive models?
According to Danny even the expensive models have poor quality parts. It is far more likely that it just doesn't make a worthwhile difference very often. Danny's opinions on this and emphasis he puts on crossover parts are at odds with the science and general consensus within the loudspeaker design community.
@@myleso-k2068 I couldn't disagree with you more , you obviously haven't rebuilt any speakers of your own
@@myleso-k2068 It is more a question of distortion versus power level. No matter if it is the cabinet construction, the drivers or the crossover, audible distortion will obviously increase with the power level. So, crossover quality is only on parameter to check. If the cabinet resonate at certain frequencies and power level, the sound will suffer accordingly. The same applies to drivers, poor design and construction will impede the possibility to perform at higher power. We have to remember most of the mesurements are taken at only 1 watt of power, hence we can't see the distortion creeping in at that level. This is one of the reasons some speakers sound changes dramatically when you crank up the volume. Every company have their recipe to squeeze the most bang for their buck of investment. Crossover parts are one of the strategies they use to save a few dollars and since most people do not open their speakers to look inside, they have no idea if they have good value for the asked price. Also, companies invest more in publicity and marketing strategies than research and devlopement (R&D). Having myself modified over 100 pairs in the last 35 years, the before and after changes are audible more if you push the volume. This is a consensus in the scientific community.
@@myleso-k2068 What Danny says, in so many ways, in many of his videos, makes complete sense.
Every part of a speaker build has an effect on the output.
The cabinet, the drivers themselves, the crossovers, everything. Absolutely everything.
When his goal is to have a consistent signal that's as flat as can be, his goal is to accurately reproduce audio signal that was mastered by the artist in a production room. During production, when the audio is mastered, the artist and others dictate the strength of say The clash of a symbol or the guitar or the drum beat because that's how they want it blended. When that signal is played and sent out to a speaker, the moment a speaker design does not accurately represent a flat signal, you lose what the artist may or may not even have intended for you to hear.
Even then, once you get a speaker to produce as flat as possible, your next challenge is the room that you're listening to it in.
Crossover tuning to attempt to improve speaker design flaws and cabinetry flaws and sound room treatment so that way the audio can be heard as the original Mastered audio signal is sent to the speakers.
Plus, if you're selling thousands and thousands of units, $100 or more in improved components makes a huge difference to the bottom end and sometimes that "savings" looks impressive on paper more so than adding more cost to some of these speakers that are already ridiculous in price.
In the end, even the best produced and most accurate speaker with all of the best components can still not sound impressive in a room that sucks. So that's likely where the difference comes in to where people don't think that these components make the difference.
I bet if you change the crossover components and listen to the speakers in an anechoic chamber you will hear every difference he speaks of.
@@myleso-k2068 As someone who built and designed his own speakers, as well as sold hifi for over a decade, expensive crossover components are a poor waste of resources. A $50 cap connected to a $50 Tweeter is insane, when a $5 cap connected to a $95 Tweeter will always sound better, all other things being equal. Let Danny compare two capacitors of the same value (Within 2%), one a cheap poly, and the other an expensive film cap, and connect them to a tweeter and measure the frequency response, impulse response, distortion levels, and decay, and show us the differences. If a copper film cap can make such an audible difference, it absolutely will show up in one of those measurements.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have tried preaching this till I am blue in the face. Now I can point people to this video and say watch this.
Interesting video. Only thing I struggle to wrap my head around is at what point is it better to get a better speaker with better drivers. Like yeah for a lot of people sending in their speakers they already own making them sound as good as possible within reason makes sense but in the situation where you're looking to buy speakers that you eventually plan to upgrade at what point does having the better driver make more of a difference. Like lets say you have a $500 budget, spending $100 on speaker and $400 on upgrades I would imagine would be worse than a $300 speaker with $200 of upgrades or $400 with $100 on upgrades assuming all speakers are reasonably well designed within their price target.
Second questions is what makes more of a difference between parts and where they are assuming your upgrade isn't changing the design. Like lets say you have a $200 upgrade budget is it better to stack upgrades on one part like high end parts on tweeter and midrange parts on the woofer or upper midrange on both, etc.
Also is there any difference in longevity these days with parts? For example I know older crossover parts can go out of spec or dry up so is it possible that might be the reason some parts are used over others?
I suppose it's going to come down to the speaker you are upgrading . Some may have great drivers and bad parts. Some may have bad drivers and parts .
The crossover parts seem to be more expensive. Look at the xls encore the woofer is 30 and the tweeter is 50 . Not expensive but great drivers. You could spend hundreds even more on a crossover. The better drivers will insure there are less parts in the design which will result in a cheaper crossover in the long run.
@@toecutterjenkins Very true. Definitely a lot of variables especially considering a lot of the speakers that come through aren't designed as well as they could (rp600m comes to mind). I guess I'm just thinking when as many variables are proportionally even as possible, where are the high value parts. I guess thinking of it from a diy sense is better but if I put all my money into one side of the puzzle be it drivers or crossover parts where an I getting a better return on my money.
@@TylerStout I have encores and for the price I don't think you can go wrong as a starting point. Especially if you have the skill to build the boxes yourself. I used 4 pieces of 1x12x48" mdf shelving from HD the cost less than 4 bucks each.
Instead of handwaiving explanations, this was tested at ASR. Bottom line was that any poly cap is as good as any other poly cap, and “improvements” beyond that have no measurable effect. So just use low cost poly caps and air core chokes and don’t listen to “this cap sounds different to that” because it simply isn’t true.
They are just taking measurements and theorizing a result over there. They do no real science. Nothing they say over there can even be taken seriously.
Have you done a video on cabinet physics, especially concerning cabinets that are designed to bring out the best audio on set of speakers? Are there speakers are more limited by cabinet design than parts? Really enjoy the channel.
Danny talks about this topic a lot, just watch his content. A great place to start would be his 4-part on open baffle basics.
Wow you continue to impress with your knowledge and willingness to share it. You're a gem!
Good discussion Danny, a lot of good points made. Great video for all DIY’ers to watch.
Speaker material, coil material and magnet are crucial. If you look at pro level speakers, you get spl’s of 119, 125 or even 135 spl.
Crossovers are important for splitting frequencies but a higher spl speaker will require less power and usually have better clarity at lower power.
Even better,if the system can have a linear power curve through the EQ section, then clarity is greatly increased over the power range
I never understood why audiophiles still design boards on a 2 dimensional plane when space is not really an issue.
My 3d circuits capture the crispness in the highs plus low frequency depth and complexity with an absolutely flirtatious mid-range sweetness while cancelling out the bad vibes and irresponsible harmonic overtones that have led to the downfall of art in the 21st century. For the internal wiring I use hope. Really, a true miracle.
can you show examples ?
Thank you for this video! I am now inspired to rebuild my 1990 M&K S-1b satellites with Solen caps. May end up doing bypass caps as well but not a first. Dayton audio resistors you showed. Solid core wire you sell. CMC short binding posts. A second crossover board so the coils can be separated and arranged for less interference. I’m sure more could be done but this is pretty extensive for my knowledge level. Hopefully will have some nice performance changes when all done. Thank you Danny for your videos and knowledge sharing.
It'd be very cool to see a few crossover designs, using varying price points of components.. then review and abx test and see what is thought to be best. Really nice info here, thanks for taking the time to share.
Been there, done that, and shot a video on it: ruclips.net/video/cDl1hhT4ETU/видео.html
Some measurements of how the frequency response, harmonic distortion and time delay changes would be cool too.
I can say this as a truck driver and part time mechanic, parts do matter. I can get inexpensive sensors, or other mechanical bits, and rarely do they work, or last longer than what the OEM produces. I cannot see it being any different in the manufacture of audio speakers and gear. Just as in automotive parts, I can walk into a plant making say interior pieces or carpet. They have lines for say GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda. The first three carmakers are of lesser quality than the last two. It is no different in audio or electrical bits. And as Danny stated, for only a few pennies more the quality can be had.
@Michael Wright I can whole heartedly agree that quality and price do matter. But for some reason in the audiophile community there seems to be a large contingent of "Snake Oil Salesmen", who will happily take large sums of your money for something that does absolutely nothing for the end sound. If you look at a price/quality ratio graph you will see it's logarithmic, meaning in the beginning of the curve there are good quality improvements for not much of a price increase. However the curve soon starts to rapidly rise and the price skyrockets for little if any improvement in quality. This is where the "Snake Oil Salesmen" like to live by selling you $10,000/ft speaker wire and telling you that if you can't hear the difference between that and $1/foot speaker wire there is something wrong with you because they can hear it. Then they tell you there are no measuring instruments that can verify that but if your a true audiophile you could definitely tell the difference.
100% Danny. I just recently upgraded the crossover parts, binding posts, internal wiring (from you, thanks, Danny) in a pair of Forte i’s I got from my neighbor. I also put dynamat on the backs of the speakers. I did 1 speaker at a time to see the difference between them, and it was easily audible. So, yes…parts absolutely matter.
Ive git a pair of frotes im looking to upgrade, starting out by using the JEM kit which js the authorised electrolytic cap kit. From there im going to upgrade to film and maybe other components like resostors and inductors. Do you have a kost kf what upgrades you did?
@@Dunhill-gk3csHi there. Apologies for missing your comment. You likely know by now that Danny has a kit specifically for the Forte l’s. I unfortunately don’t remember the total cost, but if you look at the schematic for the Forte l’s, I replaced each speakers parts with 1.5uf and 1uf caps with Clarity caps (the purple ones), and a less expensive Solen for the 47uf going to the woofer, as it’s not as crucial as the other caps for the squawker or tweeter.
I replaced the 40 ohm 5 watt resistor with either Mills or Ohmite, and the 3mH and .16mH inductors with Jantzen (Mundorf are nice too) ones. I left the T 10A as is. Oh, I also replaced the internal wire with some stranded OFC copper ones I got from Danny. The total cost for everything was no more than $100-$150 or so.
As I mentioned, I did one at a time, and the results were clear. As I let the parts break in, they became a bit more mellow on the top end, the mids more defined, and tighter bass. The Forte l’s have a 12” passive radiator, where all the others have a 15”.
I hope that was somewhat helpful, and it can’t hurt to give Danny a call. If you haven’t seen it, check out the vid he did of a Forte l. I may have just gotten the kit from him, but did my upgrades before his video.
Highly informative, Thanks for sharing !
Thanks for the explanation on by-pass Caps! Was on the fence with them until I tried it out; it's a very good bang for buck 'by-pass' to outright upgrading larger electro caps (~100uf) to film caps due to costs and size.
Did you bypass these electrolytic caps? Does it work? I've read some contradicting stuff about it. I know they work amazingly on poly caps
@@nathanvanstralendorff2405 I found it tightened up the bass when it was added to the LF section of a 3-way circuit. Ideally it's completely upgraded from electro to film when possible.
@@QuinYip Greatly thanks for your response. Well test it out as soon I'll get the Caps. Thanks again.
@@nathanvanstralendorff2405 hope it goes well! I used the Cornell Dublier 940c 0.01uf for bypass duties. I believe Vishay also has a notable cap for this purpose too.
@@QuinYip I've had Vishay in the past and some Russian PIO Glass envelop which were really nice, sweet and musical. Do/did you like the Cornell bypass caps?
Finally ,a guy that is relatable too.
Plain English explanations.
Thank you.
Do you have any examples where you've taken the same speaker, and without changing the design of the crossover in terms of component values, done cheese components vs high end components and had very different measurements? I know measurement is not everything, but it might help to quieten the naysayers. I'm interested to hear your strip down of the Wharfedales. I have a pair of Diamond 121s which use similar drivers I think.
Watch this one: ruclips.net/video/cDl1hhT4ETU/видео.html
@@dannyrichie9743 thanks for the link. I had a listen and I do agree that B sounded better even with a pair of low end headphones. Slightly more clarity. Is there any discernible difference between waveforms if one is subtracted from the other? Could a test with say 5 distinct frequencies being played simultaneously and subtraction of the waveforms show small phase shifts or other effects on amplitude?
Did that to my own speakers. Not being able to send a tower speaker across the pond to Danny, I asked Monitor Audio if they could supply a crossover diagram for my old GR20. They were kind enough to do so, even though the HF cap didn’t match the one in the speaker. Difference was fantastic and 3 months on they are still running in and sounding better all the time.
@@markcarrington8565 I have a pair of RX6 and I am afraid of looking at the crossover :) so basically you asked for the diagram from MA, bought the new high quality parts with same specs and got better results… right ?
@@anthonyzimmer80 absolutely! I’m sure they wouldn’t share details of the new ranges, however, if, like me, you’re a few versions behind, they might respond to an enthusiast of the brand. Good luck.
I’ve learnt so much watching these videos thank you
A much needed video for many of us, I imagine. Thanks so much for posting.
Hi there Danny. Many thanks. I'm just getting back into building a system, for the first time in many years. Before I begin, I'm repairing the old stuff I have. Just to see what's going on. A/B test. Now there is a DAC, streaming audio, and power supply EMI/RF, isolation. Plus 1 value in some column if there is an imaginary tracking system for that 'stuff.' Anyway, I have ototoxic hearing loss. Building a system anyway, starting with repairing the old things I have. I cannot predict what I can be able to hear. Technics 'new class A' and the first speakers to use are Magnat 144 series. Thanks again. Ohm L2s crossover boards are being redone, you have helped me a bit. As much as anyone, Kent Larson has a 2 minute video demonstrating inductors and capacitors in a signal.
I’m taking Engineering classes here. He means business. He knows his stuff. I salute you, sir!
You could take things a lot further.
Buy a box of the best you can, then measure each part and match up so you can have the same or as close possible in the left and right.
My price starts at $ 1000 plus parts. 😊
Parts matter and some matter more. But most interestingly is what it is in the part that makes the difference. For example, what exactly is it in certain capacitors that make them sound better even with the same capacitance? Of course capacitors are measurable, so it would be nice to see measurements showing why they sound different.
Just as a healthy heart depends on our habits and keeps us alive and kicking. The heart of a fantastic pair of speakers is all about the crossover matching well with what is manufactured. I don't put cheap poly caps in the crossovers I build. But then I love to hear speakers that reveal the fullness of the studios intentions.
Sir! I've listened to audiophile experts for years and I know when someone knows what they are talking about. I have no tolerance for snake oil and You Are the Best at cutting through the Snake Oil! I MUST Subscribe to your RUclips channel. SHALOM!
@Albert Jennings I agree he is one of the best "Snake Oil Salesmen" out there. Love his techno mumbo jumbo like "smear". 🤣 I would love for him to tell me how to measure it and at what levels are considered good, bad, acceptable "smear".
good explanation of how the parts work, but don't forget to mention that capacitors only pass AC and block DC (as do transformers) which is an important aspect of how valve amplifiers work. (great explanations of that by fellow Texan resident Uncle Doug on his RUclips channel)
okay I give up. while there is no and will be no actual explanation of differences in performance, da big components look cool and that's good enough for me to respect the craft
It's not super easy to measure or show on a graph, but smearing of cheap components is kind of like ghosting & motion blur on a cheap LCD monitor vs a nice "gaming" monitor with a high refresh rate and faster response time. Different cap types have different properties, just like different panel types. The trouble is that it's difficult to convert concepts in audio like "tone" into easily understandable visual graphs. I find that the TV/monitor analogy are the most similar and effective way of explaining it.
@@hoth2112 okay but have you heard the difference or are you just being taken for a ride?
@@ar_xiv I wont know till I get them finished. ;P But I'm here for every step of the process, and haven't been steered wrong yet. But I enjoy the experience and have learned a lot. Its why I built both entry level and really high end DIY for this project.
Best explanation of component role on speaker quality I have heard.
The right crossover dictates performance moreso than the quality of the parts. Danny is emphasizing the wrong aspect. I'll take the right crossover with cheap parts over a bad crossover with expensive parts anyday
What is the "right crossover" I assume you mean one designed to match the drivers among other things, regardless of your definition of the right crossover, you need a properly designed crossover with decent parts to get the best out of your speakers, if you think parts do not matter, you are wrong.
@@Canuckken yes that's what I meant. Not some online calculator or off the shelf job
That is why I often have to redesign crossovers for commercial speakers. Then the parts quality becomes very important.
Who are the idiots that say parts quality don't matter, this would make Rupert neve turn over in his grave. Parts and engineering are everything.
Danny, you're great with graphs. I would love to see some graphs visualizing the comparison between these components. That would really help people to internalize the importance of good parts.
He's not going to show you graphs because they will only prove that what's he's saying isn't actually true.
Graphing a capacitor, an inductor, or a resistor will only show or confirm the value. It will not show the purity or integrity of the signal that passed through it. It you are looking for sound quality on a chart then you are looking in the wrong place.
@@dannyrichie9743 What magic do you think electrical music signals are?
@@dannyrichie9743 interesting. I just figured there'd be some way to visualize that signal integrity, even if the measured difference is subtle. Shows what I know! I absolutely believe you and your peers when you say there's a difference, I just wish there was some way to gauge that difference per situation.
@@Spaniard47 The effects of poor components can totally be visualized graphically. Not in a frequency plot, maybe in a waterfall or distortion plot, but it would be entirely obvious in audioband waveform distortions on an oscilloscope (ringing, energy storage, over/undershoot, over/underdamping, slow slew rates, microphonics, adjacent component field interactions, etc). But we have to limit such comparisons to the audioband; many advertised "better" components are only better in the MHz or GHz bands, and of little use to audio.
Great information and knowledge!!!!
On the theme of parts quality, I need to recap my tube amp and tube DAC. I figure that I need to replace them by the same capacitance value. One answer I can’t find though is about voltage rating. I’d be grateful if someone can weigh in:
I can choose a replacement capacitor of the same voltage or higher. Many of the nice capacitors sometimes have a higher voltage rating. Although from an electrical point of view it is safe to use, is there an effect on the audio quality to replace a cap with higher voltage rating?
Thank you!
Higher voltage cap is ok but costs more for no real benefit. Spend your money on better material/architecture cap. For a coupling cap it is hard to beat Miflex copper for price performance. A lot of the sound of a Duelund without the cost. Down a notch in price, the Obbligato Gold is much better than a Sonic cap.
@@user-od9iz9cv1w Thank you!
Wow! I'm a fan. Thank you for this channel. I've always wanted to know more about the solid-state components from another perspective. Thank you
Thanks for the video, really helpful!
I recently built the Samba MT speakers from parts express and the one built with provided resistors and caps.,was irritating to listen to, I replaced the other kit with solen caps and jantsen resistors and the difference is very audible .I am a believer, and for just a few bucks, very satisfied!
This is so true. I tried out adding some pure copper foil bypass caps from Duelund on my designs recently (bypassing clarity cap and Jantzen Superior Z caps) and I can’t go back. The depth and speed is... beyond anything I’ve heard before.
Can't agree more. I went from the Jantzen Cross Caps, to the Standard Z and then the Superior -Z on the HF circuit; Can't go back once you've heard the improvement, it's like peeling layers off veil away each time!
Just stumbled on this site, great video, very clear explanations. Subscribed.
If true, then there's a way to measure and prove it. I'd like to see an effort made to demonstrate your claims with measurements. I think most hobby folks can easily understand the advantage of a capacitor or inductor that maintains constant characteristics across the intended range and drive levels. Iron cores and electrolytic caps are both easily verifiably non-linear in the range of acoustic frequency (and electrolytics have terrible tolerance and loss of capacity over time anyway, making matters worse). Once we get to poly caps though, proving there's an advantage in going up the range beyond is going to get more difficult. Is there a way you can measure it and prove it? Also is there a way to prove that a $600 capacitor is a better investment than an active crossover multi-amp approach?
You don't really get audio, it's not some scientific chart. We don't actually possess the equipment to accurately measure what the ear hears. We can do things like frequency response, impulse, decay but what that tells you is actually pretty limited. The best thing you can really do is try different pieces and see what you think. I can hear obvious difference between caps for example. Resistors, not really. People looking for specs or measurements will honestly never be satisfied. It's just not what music is even though it's a useful tool for sales because it's where people typically start, kind of like this channel. It's entry-level DIY building and of course is designed to sell you things regardless of if they make the speaker better. I mean they might, but they might not. you have to try it. The charts really aren't going to tell you anything, your ears will
First class information. I often choose speakers based on the quality of the components in the crossover. But it is often not worth making changes in the crossover due to the poor quality of the speakers.
Great video! I really enjoy knowing my speakers are running better than stock, having GR Reserch modifications. Not only are the modifications fun, with a good way to get to know your speakers, it also is a great bang for your buck in sound quality.
Incredible ability to teach.
Thank you
Say no to the cheese!
Time to start making cheese T-shirts merch
Already on it.
One of if not the most informative video I've ever seen, I now know I won't skimp with my Scan-Speak drivers
Thank-you for your time and effort Danny!
Havent been checkin YT too much lately, lovin the production quality upgrades Danny!
As a physicist, I find this highly cringeworthy. Where did you "learn" the basics of electronics? "shorter wavelengths tend to cancel each other out" (3:50) as explanation for the low-pass property of a coil is just plain stupid. Not to mention "shorter wavelengths jumping from one [winding] to another" for the high pass :D
I think you are being hyper-critical here...as, it sound like he is trying to convey the basic concepts in a more palatable way, aimed at to more entry-level enthusists.
i bet Dannys speakers sound ALOT better than yours Kai....
I get what your saying but most of us kind of know what he's talking about and not being to critical. Probably should have stated that the inductor accelerates the frequency rolloff based on the inductance of the inductor. The passive crossover parts filters their respective frequencies.
as a physicist, interested in crossovers, might i ask you some serious questions? 1) i notice many use a technique to measure 'free air' impedance. since driver impedance must be used in formulas to derive values for inductors and capacitors - isnt it pointless, or even stupid, to measure impedance of driver in free air? shouldnt the driver be mounted in the cabinet and entire unit placed in room to be used in - to make accurate driver impedance measurement? question 2. driver impedance will change with frequency. since the inductor and capacitor values to be calculated are based on the 'crossover frequency', isnt it stupid to enter into the calculation formulas the so- called 'nominal impedance' of the driver. for absolute accuracy of the calculations, shouldnt the component values be calculated using the driver impedance AT THE ACTUAL CROSSOVER FREQUENCY? final question. with a 4th order linkwitz-riley circuit, most literature stupidly says the drivers will be 360 degrees out of phase (and they show a sine wave to demonstrate the two respective drivers will be in phase as they reproduce a sine wave at the crossover freq to satisfy the readers of those articles). but once again, isnt this simple mindness or stupidity? as no one listens to sine waves. if the 'attack' soundfront of a drum thump were monitored by two mics in front of, say the woofer and midrange, we would clearly see one driver would be ahead of the other in displaying the attack peak waveform. for perfect fidelity, wouldnt it require to move either of those two drivers front or back the distance of one full wavelength of the crossover frequency to bring them into perfect phase? im desiring to design build a crossover, and none of these important aspects are even discussed at most literature or websites. finally, im aware of how emfs move between inductors (aka transformers). and yet no one mentions the need to either greatly space apart the inductors so there is no unwanted crosstalk, or enclosing the coils in faraday cages so the emfs dont radiate to nearby coils. any insight on this? it seems like only you and i think in these specific ways...
Great overview - - for crossovers - good design even with non-polar electrolytic capacitors could be better than poor design with some boutique capacitors. Duelund - cast capacitors may be wondrous (?) but are stupid expensive. DC-Link caps have very good spec and not horribly expensive. PIO type including old hermetically sealed Russian foil and metalized paper type may be used in some systems to tonal advantage. Charge coupling is worth a try imo. Motor run caps can be found very cheap and probably as good as most. Dayton offers very nice steel-core inductors at nice prices.
Resistors, inductors and caps doesnt sound: they do their job and thats all = frequency filters, they just let or do not pass certain frequencies.
More important is the design of the crossover and speakers itself. Nice snake-oil video. Funny to read: GREAT INFO! Suuuure...
18$ for a resistor, what a joke...
You must revel in the fact that you are the smartest person on youtube
@@Mike_Jones68I studied a electronic and audio and acoustic engineering, so maybe but not....
So no, I don't believe what a youtuber tells me as a fact because yes, and even less if the information is incorrect.
Blah.
@@NunkaOlvidar well then by your expertise and undebatable logic, sound signal running thru a breadboard shld be just perfectly fine then. Right?
You have a lot to learn.
@@Mike_Jones68 Facepalm*
Well they do matter but design matters the most. In addition the most expensive is not necessarily the best in all situations. Also it depends to a certain degree what the application is. What might be a game changer in a midrange circuit may be almost trivial in a woofer circuit.
my wife looked at the title then looked at me and said "apparently not"
lol
:-) the parts are inside
@@WUOTH she looked but couldnt find them ;-)
that's what she said...:)
Thanks for such an informative video! I bet I learned FAR more useful information about crossovers by watching your video than I have learned reading 3 months worth of reading. Again, thank you!
Would be funny to see a crossover board with just blocks of cheese.
Thank you for this clear explanation of the crossover components that is geared toward the layperson or non electrical engineer crowd. Now I feel like I have at least a very basic understanding of how all of these components combine to influence the output of the speaker.
Nice job on this video, Danny. I'm DIY inspired even more seeing Hobbs crossover.
Yeah it's overkill to the point where I now have to build a separate box for it cuz the giant cap in the tweeter circuit makes the crossover far too large to fit in the cabinet.. lol
A smaller 250V copper cap with the same uF value would make it viable to fit, but I got them on sale for a decent price. less than a pair of 240 volt rated copper caps.. plus it also allows me to swap out the crossover with one of much lower quality for fun. Which I've already built that costs maybe $25 per board? Iron core inductors in the woofer circuit along with electrolytic caps, sand cast resistors in the tweeter circuit and cheap poly caps. Not to mention super cheap binding posts and spring steel bananas. lol
I personally wouldn't recommend most people going overboard, but I want these to have my system grow into them.
The fully upgraded level we offer for the NX Studios is by far the best bang for buck option. And probably 25% the cost of my own crossovers.. lol
But its all for my own enjoyment
@@hoth2112 I like overboard, it appeals to my nature. I'm upgrading the external crossovers on my Pure Audio Project Quintet 15 Horn 1 open baffle speakers, with Jupiter 33uF Copper Foil Paper & Wax capacitors, Mundorf Aircore VLCU7 10mH Copper Foil Paper 7awg coils, and Dueland Silver Graphite resistors on the L-Pad. I had to special order the caps and coils. For the bypass caps, I will test both the V-CAP CuTF and Miflex KPCU. I ordered a black polycarbonate mounting plate from ePlastics, CNC'd to my layout. All of the components will be mounted on top with all the wiring concealed in the base, including the all of the Tywrap heads.
@@ericharrelson2045 that's gunna be one heck of a build. Heard good thigns about those graphite resistors. I could have gone overboard with the capacitor in the woofer circuit, but size would have been a struggle to manage. Especially for a pair of bookshelf speaker. Maybe ill consider it for a nice set of towers
@@hoth2112 you should offer the 'Hobbs Edition' crossovers for each of the speakers. Tell Danny you want a cut for each one sold 😉
@@miheadhurts the trick would be getting parts in. Tho I expect only a small number would jump on that. Plus I would make a couple changes to bring the size down a bit, so it will actually fit into the speaker. Lol
I always love this debate. I like most here have post grad degrees in science and understand psychoacoustic .. sure we want an improvement in our efforts to chase the perfect sound. I have done many things Danny has suggested.. my brain says the acoustic difference in same value resistors and inductors couldn’t possibly be different right..? Ohhh so wrong. I have spent thousands on this hobby Xover design predominantly on different caps / inductors on my Crites pre production model. I can say without reservation, side by side A/B every single time , there absolutely is a difference in sound in caps / inductors introduced in a design maintaining the exact same values. Unfortunately not everyone can recognize a difference due to hearing loss and we have so few brick and mortar stores to audition high end audio these days. “Magnolia Room doesn’t count” lol. If your hearing is not impaired, be ever so thankful, protect it and everything does matter in the signal path. You don’t have to spend a lot of money to get much improved performance.
What is a 'smearing effect' in terms of how the components *measure*? Smearing/spatial cues - its hifi BS - what's the engineering beyond a capacitor acting as a store with no resistance, and an inductor acting as an impedance with no saturation and no resistance and no capacitance? If anything, this just reinforces my commitment to doing crossover in DSP, You can get *exactly* what you want, with very high repeatability and predictability, with a downside of figuring where to do the volume control and extra amps. I do understand that some of these products have a performance that is closer to the ideal wrt resistance, linearity etc. But the cost becomes astronomic.
Yes, precisely all of this comment. And the important part: "is it audible"
Very interesting insight…. thank you for posting…
KCB🙂🇬🇧👍
I must state that Danny Richie knows his stuff. As for resistors, I built my own with pure graphite packed into Teflon tubes. And PVC insulation sounds horrible as it absorbs sound wave lengths.
He's correct. Parts in the crossover makes a huge difference. You can plainly hear an inductor change
YES there is a difference between a $600 capasitor and a $50 capacitor (the difference is $550) :D
Dal Migliori!
WOW - now I totally get it. Wish I had this lecture when I started out in electronics because JC theory SUUUCKEDDDDDDD~!!!! ~@@~ This is like the advantage that Wozniak had starting out - basically same idea - optimizing circuits through available components (in his case mostly A/D hybrid logic circuits.) Which came from his father's eng. work in HP testers and calculators.
Yep, if you can hear the difference between same-gauge speaker cables, then I guess you will also hear the difference between same rating resistors. LOL...You also believe the sun and the universe rotate around the earth, which you believe to be flat, too. PT Barnum said it well.
If you cannot hear the difference, perhaps a different hobby should be in your future. By the way, at the edge of the earth there is a ladder so you don't have to fall off.
@@alfonsodelafreg259I am an electronics engineer, and have designed speakers and electronics. I know bullshit when I hear it.
@@rfbead321 Guess what. So am I, and so have I. I can hear the differences in most of what Danny describes. There are many more that he doesn't talk about. Open your mind and do some experimenting on your own. It really doesn't matter to me, and it could be you are not able to hear subtle differences. Either way just don't dismiss things flippantly.
i like how you speak about it everything in electronics everything matters , let me show you these caps we sell . Because god forbid you have Electronic crossover that every professional uses , be it in studio , or PA systems , or even high quality HiFi .
Can tell you do not understand ac/dc and frequency considerations of capacitors.
I really appreciate your channel, just can't shake the feeling that your speaker upgrades must also involve upgrading parts and wiring in amps and other devices in the signal path meaning that it is in fact a never ending road with our passionate hobby 😁